Comments on: The Unbalanced Plan of Salvation http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/ by Matthew Morine Sat, 04 Feb 2012 04:16:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pontus http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-3201 Pontus Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:32:57 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-3201 Yes, I agree that God cured Namaam just as He saves us when we are baptized. It is not a matter of the physical act as much as it is that we obey. If God says we need to get wet in order to be saved, then let's get wet, a simple act of obedience on our part will bless us in ways we cannot comprehend. Yes, I agree that God cured Namaam just as He saves us when we are baptized. It is not a matter of the physical act as much as it is that we obey. If God says we need to get wet in order to be saved, then let’s get wet, a simple act of obedience on our part will bless us in ways we cannot comprehend.

]]> By: Keith Brenton http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-3095 Keith Brenton Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:02:55 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-3095 Pontus, I might quibble over the idea that the Nile River cured Namaan's leprosy. Of course, I'd quibble over the idea that the Jordan River cured it, too. Personally, I think that God cured Naaman, and could have whether he had obeyed or not. Pontus, I might quibble over the idea that the Nile River cured Namaan’s leprosy. Of course, I’d quibble over the idea that the Jordan River cured it, too. Personally, I think that God cured Naaman, and could have whether he had obeyed or not.

]]> By: Matthew http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-3031 Matthew Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:39:30 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-3031 You are correct Guy, steps is not the best term for this. Instead of seeing separate elements, really it is one move to salvation. It is more holistic. You are correct Guy, steps is not the best term for this. Instead of seeing separate elements, really it is one move to salvation. It is more holistic.

]]> By: Guy http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-3029 Guy Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:06:32 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-3029 Matt, what do you think of calling these "steps" at all? should we really consider repentance or baptism as being qualitatively distinct from "belief"? i find it dissatisfying that our presentation is of a linear set of compartments. i find in scripture that these share a far more organic sort of relationship. Have you ever read any K.C. Moser, by the way? Matt,

what do you think of calling these “steps” at all? should we really consider repentance or baptism as being qualitatively distinct from “belief”? i find it dissatisfying that our presentation is of a linear set of compartments. i find in scripture that these share a far more organic sort of relationship. Have you ever read any K.C. Moser, by the way?

]]> By: Josh Linton http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2860 Josh Linton Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:22:36 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2860 Good stuff, Rex. Good stuff, Rex.

]]> By: Pontus http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2858 Pontus Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:12:02 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2858 I have read here about HBRCBp being a creed, not necessarily pure scripture. This "5 Step Plan" is a way of teaching someone how to become a Christian that has evolved over time. The uniqueness of the "5 Step Plan" is that it does not conveniently include or exclude any of the essential actions we must take to become a Christian. While on the subject of baptism during Sunday School, someone commented, "But the water doesn't save you." I was teaching the class and was angered at the ignorant comment, but had to keep my composure. John 3:5 is very plain. It is up to the individual to accept or reject John 3:5 and following. The water doesn't save us any more than the Nile River cured Namaan's leprosy. It was his obedience to God's word that cured him. So our obedience to God's word makes us Christians. But don't say that the water doesn't save, because then you are limiting the power of God. I have read here about HBRCBp being a creed, not necessarily pure scripture. This “5 Step Plan” is a way of teaching someone how to become a Christian that has evolved over time. The uniqueness of the “5 Step Plan” is that it does not conveniently include or exclude any of the essential actions we must take to become a Christian. While on the subject of baptism during Sunday School, someone commented, “But the water doesn’t save you.” I was teaching the class and was angered at the ignorant comment, but had to keep my composure. John 3:5 is very plain. It is up to the individual to accept or reject John 3:5 and following.

The water doesn’t save us any more than the Nile River cured Namaan’s leprosy. It was his obedience to God’s word that cured him. So our obedience to God’s word makes us Christians. But don’t say that the water doesn’t save, because then you are limiting the power of God.

]]> By: Rex http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2855 Rex Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:08:23 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2855 Josh, I think there is something to be said for rethinking the way we use catagories like "non-Christian" and "Christian." While there is certainly such a thing as a non-Christian and Christian, those labels seem to make discipleship simply into a matter of crossing the line from non-Christian to Christian. Michael Frost & Alan Hirsch in "The Shaping of Things to Come" describe this as a 'bounded set' approach to mission. They call for a 'centered set' approach which sees God in the center and each one of us as living at some point from the center (p. 47-51). They like the terms "Christians" and "Not Yet Christians" but I don't see how that terminology is any different from Christians and Non-Christians. The point I like is that we are all at some point of distance from the center which is God and the goal of redemption is to take us from where we are at and move us closer to the center. Further, if everyone is represented as an arrow then it is important to ask which direction the arrow is pointing. There are some non-Christians/not-yet-Christians whose arrow is pointing towards the center (God) and is moving in that direction. While at the same time, there are some Christians whose arrow is pointing away from the center and is thus digressing in terms of discipleship and life transformation. This takes us back repentance, confession, and baptism. Though the acts of each are normally only a one-time event, the realities of all three acts are to be continued, renewed, and committed more deeply each and everyday. Thus as I learn more and more what it means to be redeemed and live redeemed, I must continually surrender and confess the Lordship of Jesus, continually dying to myself so that God justify/sanctify me into the life of the resurrected Christ. Rex Josh,

I think there is something to be said for rethinking the way we use catagories like “non-Christian” and “Christian.” While there is certainly such a thing as a non-Christian and Christian, those labels seem to make discipleship simply into a matter of crossing the line from non-Christian to Christian. Michael Frost & Alan Hirsch in “The Shaping of Things to Come” describe this as a ‘bounded set’ approach to mission. They call for a ‘centered set’ approach which sees God in the center and each one of us as living at some point from the center (p. 47-51). They like the terms “Christians” and “Not Yet Christians” but I don’t see how that terminology is any different from Christians and Non-Christians. The point I like is that we are all at some point of distance from the center which is God and the goal of redemption is to take us from where we are at and move us closer to the center.

Further, if everyone is represented as an arrow then it is important to ask which direction the arrow is pointing. There are some non-Christians/not-yet-Christians whose arrow is pointing towards the center (God) and is moving in that direction. While at the same time, there are some Christians whose arrow is pointing away from the center and is thus digressing in terms of discipleship and life transformation. This takes us back repentance, confession, and baptism. Though the acts of each are normally only a one-time event, the realities of all three acts are to be continued, renewed, and committed more deeply each and everyday. Thus as I learn more and more what it means to be redeemed and live redeemed, I must continually surrender and confess the Lordship of Jesus, continually dying to myself so that God justify/sanctify me into the life of the resurrected Christ.

Rex

]]> By: Alan Bell http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2851 Alan Bell Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:06:16 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2851 Outstanding comments. We use these steps to help people make what appears to be a very logical decision: to become a Christian. I think for many though it is also emotional(there's another "hot" button). When we make major life decisions, marriage, college, etc., our emotions help to quide us. Later on reality sets in. We have a wife to support, we have to study, etc. The question I ask myself is how can I help this person move from an emotional decision to lifetime commitment. Outstanding comments. We use these steps to help people make what appears to be a very logical decision: to become a Christian. I think for many though it is also emotional(there’s another “hot” button). When we make major life decisions, marriage, college, etc., our emotions help to quide us. Later on reality sets in. We have a wife to support, we have to study, etc. The question I ask myself is how can I help this person move from an emotional decision to lifetime commitment.

]]> By: Josh Linton http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2849 Josh Linton Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:10:26 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2849 Reading back over the comments made me think of something. Maybe we compartmentalize peoples lives to much. For example, instead of having categories of non-christian, new-Christian, growing Christian (which seems to be the failure) maybe we should have one goal for people and ourselves: transformation into the image of Jesus. Certainly, we would have stages or steps along the way of the journey but no step would equal an arriving point, which seems like we've done with baptism. I know this paints with a broad brush but we sometimes don't take a holistic approach to a person's transformation and thus fall into the traps of elevating certain steps along the way or stopping on them altogether. Just some thoughts. Thanks for the discussion. Reading back over the comments made me think of something. Maybe we compartmentalize peoples lives to much. For example, instead of having categories of non-christian, new-Christian, growing Christian (which seems to be the failure) maybe we should have one goal for people and ourselves: transformation into the image of Jesus. Certainly, we would have stages or steps along the way of the journey but no step would equal an arriving point, which seems like we’ve done with baptism.
I know this paints with a broad brush but we sometimes don’t take a holistic approach to a person’s transformation and thus fall into the traps of elevating certain steps along the way or stopping on them altogether.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for the discussion.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.matthewmorine.com/christianity/the-unbalanced-plan-of-salvation/522/comment-page-1/#comment-2848 Bryan Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:17:30 +0000 http://matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org/?p=522#comment-2848 In Sunday school we were taught the 5 step plan, and taught that it should always be offered in the invitation. Moreover we were taught that the 5 steps was the gospel and that the sinner's prayer was sinful before baptism but proper after baptism. When I became a man, I set this aside and studied the gospel. My focus did change to embrace what God did in the Messiah for our salvation. Then I studied the meaning of "calling upon the name of the Lord" and learned that it had a rich Old Testament background. This would have been the foundational understanding of the early church. In the Old Testament calling upon the name of the Lord was most often expressed in prayer. Sometimes the prayer was for salvation from danger; and sometimes the prayer was expressed as part of an offering. In offerings praise and thanksgiving was offered and blessings were sought. If this kind of seeking of the Lord, that is foundational to the meaning of calling upon the name of the Lord, is absent from the steps; then the steps are an empty shell. In Sunday school we were taught the 5 step plan, and taught that it should always be offered in the invitation. Moreover we were taught that the 5 steps was the gospel and that the sinner’s prayer was sinful before baptism but proper after baptism. When I became a man, I set this aside and studied the gospel. My focus did change to embrace what God did in the Messiah for our salvation. Then I studied the meaning of “calling upon the name of the Lord” and learned that it had a rich Old Testament background. This would have been the foundational understanding of the early church. In the Old Testament calling upon the name of the Lord was most often expressed in prayer. Sometimes the prayer was for salvation from danger; and sometimes the prayer was expressed as part of an offering. In offerings praise and thanksgiving was offered and blessings were sought. If this kind of seeking of the Lord, that is foundational to the meaning of calling upon the name of the Lord, is absent from the steps; then the steps are an empty shell.

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